Opus Rocks
02-05-2014, 08:05 PM,
Post: #1
Opus Rocks
It is going to save an incredible amount of bandwidth while still allowing us to provide high quality audio.

Vast majority of our audios sound awesome at 16kbps - mp3 sounds like poor at 64kbps and like shit at 32kbps.

Too bad we still have to provide bloated mp3 versions for Safari users.
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02-05-2014, 09:53 PM,
Post: #2
RE: Opus Rocks
You might be surprised to learn that Safari supports multiple audio formats!
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02-05-2014, 11:39 PM,
Post: #3
RE: Opus Rocks
(02-05-2014, 09:53 PM)roo Wrote: You might be surprised to learn that Safari supports multiple audio formats!

It has a veritable cornucopia of multimedia support!
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02-06-2014, 01:31 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-06-2014, 01:32 PM by FunkyRes.)
Post: #4
RE: Opus Rocks
(02-05-2014, 09:53 PM)roo Wrote: You might be surprised to learn that Safari supports multiple audio formats!

Are you telling me this includes Opus?

If it does, I apologize for my snark.

The documentation I've found says that Safari does not. For example

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?...d_browsers

hydrogen audio is usually pretty quick about updating their wiki, I'll ask them if it needs updating.

I was unable to find anything on Apple support site about Safari and Opus
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02-06-2014, 01:47 PM,
Post: #5
RE: Opus Rocks
I had no idea the only two options for audio were opus and mp3.
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02-06-2014, 02:17 PM,
Post: #6
RE: Opus Rocks
(02-06-2014, 01:47 PM)mmaverick Wrote: I had no idea the only two options for audio were opus and mp3.

HTML5 audio generally is only mp3, Ogg Vorbis, AAC, and now Opus.

Linux browsers that use GStreamer can often do quite a bit more but they don't really count as far as marketshare.

MP3, Vorbis, and AAC are not good codecs for speech, they are designed for a much higher range of frequencies so the result is much fatter files than are necessary for speech.

Voice encoded in MP3/AAC/Vorbis at 16kbps sounds like shit.
Voice encoded in Opus at 16kbps sounds really good.

Thus you can save a lot of bandwidth cost, reduce delay/buffering problems for low bandwidth / mobile clients, and still retain high quality audio if you use Opus for encoding spoken content to be used with HTML5 audio.

Virtually all browsers support Opus. Microsoft currently requires a DirectShow plugin but given that Microsoft donated some patents and was involved in the development, it seems highly likely that they will ship the plugin themselves soon, quite possibly in an update.

Apple on the other hand does not seem to support it as far as I can tell and refuses to release the API needed for third parties (such as OpenSource community) to develop one. Same deal with WebM which doesn't work in Safari.

It seems Apple just likes playing spoiler on technical advancement in multimedia.
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02-06-2014, 02:49 PM,
Post: #7
RE: Opus Rocks
It'd suck if Microsoft used DirectShow because iirc Metro apps are limited to Media Framework codecs
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02-06-2014, 04:23 PM,
Post: #8
RE: Opus Rocks
(02-06-2014, 02:49 PM)FuturDreamz Wrote: It'd suck if Microsoft used DirectShow because iirc Metro apps are limited to Media Framework codecs

The open source community created the DirectShow plugin. However Microsofts involvement in both the development of the codec and the gift of patents to the project makes it clear that Microsoft has a vested interest in it.

There may be a Media Framework plugin too.
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02-06-2014, 04:27 PM,
Post: #9
RE: Opus Rocks
doubt it. There's virtually no MF codecs as it is.
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02-06-2014, 04:29 PM,
Post: #10
RE: Opus Rocks
https://code.google.com/p/lavfilters/

That's what currently gives support to Windows.
Microsoft will probably not use that plugin, but develop their own.
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02-06-2014, 09:21 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-06-2014, 09:21 PM by roo.)
Post: #11
RE: Opus Rocks
(02-06-2014, 01:31 PM)FunkyRes Wrote:
(02-05-2014, 09:53 PM)roo Wrote: You might be surprised to learn that Safari supports multiple audio formats!

Are you telling me this includes Opus?

No, not that.

(02-06-2014, 01:47 PM)mmaverick Wrote: I had no idea the only two options for audio were opus and mp3.

This.
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02-07-2014, 02:25 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-07-2014, 02:27 AM by Jehannum.)
Post: #12
RE: Opus Rocks
(02-06-2014, 02:17 PM)FunkyRes Wrote:
(02-06-2014, 01:47 PM)mmaverick Wrote: I had no idea the only two options for audio were opus and mp3.

HTML5 audio generally is only mp3, Ogg Vorbis, AAC, and now Opus.

Linux browsers that use GStreamer can often do quite a bit more but they don't really count as far as marketshare.

MP3, Vorbis, and AAC are not good codecs for speech, they are designed for a much higher range of frequencies so the result is much fatter files than are necessary for speech.

Voice encoded in MP3/AAC/Vorbis at 16kbps sounds like shit.
Voice encoded in Opus at 16kbps sounds really good.

Thus you can save a lot of bandwidth cost, reduce delay/buffering problems for low bandwidth / mobile clients, and still retain high quality audio if you use Opus for encoding spoken content to be used with HTML5 audio.

Virtually all browsers support Opus. Microsoft currently requires a DirectShow plugin but given that Microsoft donated some patents and was involved in the development, it seems highly likely that they will ship the plugin themselves soon, quite possibly in an update.

Apple on the other hand does not seem to support it as far as I can tell and refuses to release the API needed for third parties (such as OpenSource community) to develop one. Same deal with WebM which doesn't work in Safari.

It seems Apple just likes playing spoiler on technical advancement in multimedia.

Apple may be playing it conservatively for good reason. How does opus stack up to mp3/AAC/Ogg in terms of CPU usage?

Remember: it took a long time for h.264 to be accepted as a compression standard for video, because of the time it took for dedicated hardware to be incorporated in things like phones and tablets and shit too slow to decode it.
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02-07-2014, 05:02 AM,
Post: #13
RE: Opus Rocks
It's brand new and clients still have optimization but Apple isn't playing it conservatively because of CPU usage, there are third party iOS clients where it works just fine. It decodes just fine in Android on my Galaxy Tab 10.1 - at this point an older tablet. CPU is not an issue.

What took so long with h.264 in phones etc. was hardware support, video on handheld devices really does benefit from hardware. Opus is audio and far less CPU intensive to decode.

A 16kbps opus file is one eigth the size of a 128kbps mp3/aac and one quarter the size of a 64kbps mp3/aac and for speech still sounds fantastic. That solves a lot of problems because radically reduced filesize means client can buffer considerably more of the file while it is playing even with mediocre bandwidth.
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02-07-2014, 05:24 AM,
Post: #14
RE: Opus Rocks
Reading about Opus makes it sound like it was largely intended to be used in VOIP. With that in mind, it really isn't that shocking that apple hasn't jumped to introduce browser support for Opus.
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02-07-2014, 05:26 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-07-2014, 05:27 AM by Jehannum.)
Post: #15
RE: Opus Rocks
(02-07-2014, 05:02 AM)FunkyRes Wrote: It's brand new and clients still have optimization but Apple isn't playing it conservatively because of CPU usage, there are third party iOS clients where it works just fine. It decodes just fine in Android on my Galaxy Tab 10.1 - at this point an older tablet. CPU is not an issue.

Seeing as 1) I already acknowledged that h.264 didn't catch on until dedicated hardware, and 2) I can do math, you really only needed the quoted part. Critical thinking!

I'm sure if it starts to catch on even remotely (since, after all, it's "brand new"), Apple will start to support it. I mean, they support Ogg Vorbis, which has been relegated to esoteric nerdery in the face of more popular standards, so it seems likely that adding support for Opus should be on the radar at least.
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02-07-2014, 06:26 AM,
Post: #16
RE: Opus Rocks
This link seems relevant.

http://foaas.com/opus/%E2%99%A5%20Apple
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02-07-2014, 07:17 AM,
Post: #17
RE: Opus Rocks
So the big thing in Opus is just that it only contains frequencies used by the human voice? How had would it be to say, take mp3 and strip out all of the unneeded frequencies?
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02-07-2014, 08:48 AM,
Post: #18
RE: Opus Rocks
(02-07-2014, 07:17 AM)FuturDreamz Wrote: So the big thing in Opus is just that it only contains frequencies used by the human voice? How had would it be to say, take mp3 and strip out all of the unneeded frequencies?

No. It is far superior for streaming as well, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_(codec) and http://opus-codec.org/

Extremely low latency, much lower than any of the other common codecs (mp3/aac/vorbis) which makes it a far better choice for live streaming.

It also is able to smoothly change bitrates mid-stream, something the other major codecs really don't do well.

And opus does not only do frequencies of human voice. It does the whole range of frequencies the human ear can hear. It's good for music too.

But the algorythms used for compressing low range of frequency and high range of frequency are different. mp3/aac/vorbis don't have the algorythms that do well with a low range of frequency like human voice. Opus does, which is why for speech, opus does very well at 16kbps while the others sound like ass.

For high range of frequencies like music, the differences between opus and the others is less noticeable and the others may even better, still need more ABX testing.

But for speech, the opus is clearly superiorer.
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02-07-2014, 12:17 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-07-2014, 12:26 PM by more or less.)
Post: #19
RE: Opus Rocks
I'm pretty sure the mp4 standard for voice is 3gpp or something similar. I don't think it was ever widely adopted though.
02-07-2014, 02:29 PM,
Post: #20
RE: Opus Rocks
But Opus has the advantage of being one format that does well with both speech and music, which is what you want for streaming that contains both speech and music, such as a radio show, since you can't really switch codecs in a stream.
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02-07-2014, 10:10 PM,
Post: #21
RE: Opus Rocks
It missed its window of opportunity. Everyone who streams things has 4G or broadband now, so they aren't likely to care how superior this particular betamax is.
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02-08-2014, 12:34 AM,
Post: #22
RE: Opus Rocks
[Image: opus+in+his+undies.bmp]
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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02-08-2014, 06:54 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-08-2014, 06:57 AM by FunkyRes.)
Post: #23
RE: Opus Rocks
(02-07-2014, 10:10 PM)Jehannum Wrote: It missed its window of opportunity. Everyone who streams things has 4G or broadband now, so they aren't likely to care how superior this particular betamax is.

No, window of opportunity is not missed because it saves a sh*tload of bandwidth and bandwidth isn't free.

It also solves a lot of real time live streaming issues.

It's funny how the maclots that complained about Microsoft stagnating technology now often defend Apple doing the same effin' thing.

Betamax is a highly flawed comparison - there simply was no way to put a beta tape in a VHS player etc. but codecs are easily incorporated into existing platforms. It's fucking digital technology, not physical technology.

The end user never has to give a shit about what the codec is, we are now using opus in our html5 audio as the first listed audio source which means every browser that supports it plays the opus file and the user doesn't even know unless they inspect.

FireFox and Chrome users (most of the web) get the opus version. IE and Safari users get the mp3. Some opera users get opus and some get the vorbis version, soon all opera users will get the opus and we won't need vorbis anymore. Once Safari and MS have native support, we won't need mp3 anymore.

Opus is the codec that will be THE way to do audio on the web. The unifying codec so we don't need a bunch of different codecs for different browsers and different use cases.

It's also an IETF standard which no other audio codec is, and is required for WebRTC. So Apple really does need to get off their lazy superioristic asses and make a CoreAudio (or whatever) plugin so Safari can handle it.

It's simply better and moving to Opus is going to happen all over the web whether or not Apple adopts it, their failure to do so is just Apple impeding progress.

Saying it is like betamax is like saying h.264 is too late because DivX is everywhere. It's a fucking moronic thing for you to have said.
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02-08-2014, 07:57 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-08-2014, 08:24 AM by Jehannum.)
Post: #24
RE: Opus Rocks
Keep on flogging your hipster platforms, dude. Oh, and keep calling people who have no dog in the fight "fucking morons" because they see your particular hobby-horse of the moment as a solution in search of a problem. That's for sure gonna get me marching down to Apple HQ tomorrow fucking morning to bang on the door of the idiots writing Safari, to demand they incorporate your POS little codec RIGHT THIS FUCKING MINUTE.

SMH

(02-08-2014, 06:54 AM)FunkyRes Wrote: No, window of opportunity is not missed because it saves a sh*tload of bandwidth and bandwidth isn't free.

It also solves a lot of real time live streaming issues.
Do what literally every other streaming provider does and cache.

There comes a point where being the single source of a broadcast is going to overwhelm your technical capabilities. I've seen it in job scheduling on massively parallel computers (where the number of nodes executing exceeds the capability of the controlling node to address them), and we have a solution for it: trees. Trees are a delightful solution to the problem - you simply send the control signal to a small subset of your intended receiving nodes, and then allow them to address it to the nodes downstream of them. As I understand it, there exists a framework for doing this now on the new-fangled intertubes (akamai and AWS come to mind immediately).

Since this is merely an improvement of a constant factor, and not asymptotically better than any of the other compression plugins out there, I see your particular issue as one of degree, rather than one for jihad.

Quote:It's also an IETF standard which no other audio codec is, and is required for WebRTC. So Apple really does need to get off their lazy superioristic asses and make a CoreAudio (or whatever) plugin so Safari can handle it.

WebRTC is a draft of an API that isn't related to streaming outside of something that sounds a lot like VOIP. It's not an IETF standard, and your claim that it is simply demonstrates that you're willing to bend the rules of debate to make a point that isn't valid.

Next, Safari accounts for a pretty small minority of the traffic out there. Even if the evil Apple doesn't incorporate Opus into their next Safari release (or whatever), you've still got your 8-fold savings of precious chrism over 85% of the time. Some back of the envelope math says that's about a 6-fold savings in bandwidth, so be happy for what you can get.

Finally, you're throwing a bitch fit. Stop it.
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02-08-2014, 08:28 AM,
Post: #25
RE: Opus Rocks
Quote:Keep on flogging your hipster platforms, dude. Oh, and keep calling people who have no dog in the fight "fucking morons" because they see your particular hobby-horse of the moment as a solution in search of a problem. That's for sure gonna get me marching down to Apple HQ tomorrow fucking morning to bang on the door of the idiots writing Safari, to demand they incorporate your POS little codec RIGHT THIS FUCKING MINUTE.

Again you demonstrate no clue as what hipster is. Hipster is retro, not interested in modernizing.
And comparing opus to betamax is moronic.

With betamax, consumers had to make a conscious choice.
With audio codecs they don't. The software supports it and the consumer doesn't have a fucking clue what the codec is.

For content distribution though it makes a big difference, you can stream to more clients at the same time and for static audio content you can radically reduce your bandwidth bill.

And that is why Opus will become the codec of audio web content delivery.

Implementing it OS X is not difficult, Apple likes to control everything. WebRTC isn't under their control so they are acting like little bitches and doing a dis-service to their userbase.
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