Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
08-19-2017, 08:25 AM,
Post: #101
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
(08-19-2017, 12:47 AM)Gippy Wrote:
(08-18-2017, 09:02 PM)roo Wrote:
(08-18-2017, 11:13 AM)Gippy Wrote:
(08-18-2017, 10:55 AM)roo Wrote:
(08-18-2017, 08:33 AM)Gippy Wrote: We've been lucky. There haven't been any real "help help I'm being oppressed" events that I can remember.

We've had lots of alarms that people THINK their free speech rights are being violated. Nothing real (caveat: nothing NEW that's real. Lots of long standing struggles still endure). But if the actual event where we come to the brink and analyze our response is that white supremacists/nazi/fascist/alt-right were given their rights, but a response by the people shut them up. Yeah, I'm ok with that.

It feels to me like so far we're passing the free speech test. The government allows a lot (arguably too much when money counts as free speech). But the people stand up when they've had enough of a bad thing. Look at the build up to gay marriage. Lots of noise, marches, protests and glitter. No one got shut down. Protests against war. Same thing (minus the glitter). Protests against government over overreach (ie: the Bundys, Healthcare). Protests against worldwide government collusion (G8). Equal rights (BLM). Varying levels of participation, vigor, privilege, and property damage. But whatever side those were on, the only event that truly pushed the boundaries were in response to Nazis.

Did I miss a relevant example? (again, asking for a friend)
Has something tyrannical happened that I've missed? As much as I loathe Trump, he hasn't passed in to tyranny.

I may not be paying attention, but I don't recall violent counter demonstrations at these.  Perhaps we can agree that demonstrations aren't the problem.

That's part of my point. None of those garnered counter protests of note. The counter protest that pushed back against a movement, that has us questioning free speech, was against white supremacy. Not bad.

There's the rub: using violence to silence ideas is the sort of bullying fuels tyranny.  The bullies who attacked demonstrators are criminals. It's that simple.  It's not a criminal activity to demonstrate, it's criminal to assault and kill others for their beliefs.

The other problem is that no one knows who threw the first punch.  Sure, one might argue that the counter protesters picked a fight, and one might argue the torch bearers were trolling for conflict all long. I think they're all guilty.  I don't want any of those idiots making decisions in my country.  It's not that I'm sympathetic to the Nazis, it's that I'm unwilling to relinquish liberty because of some dumb street brawl.

At the risk of really dragging this out:

I've got a line in my brain where this opposition wasn't the silencing, nor the attempt to silence, the white supremacists. Silencing isn't the goal in opposition like this. It is sending a message.

It is splitting hairs, I know, but at no point has the opposition to white supremacy sought to outright silence them. It is setting an example of what's wrong and what the repercussions are. Maybe that's just as bad. Due to the tactics it probably falls under intimidation. But, once again, I'm not opposed to a violent reaction to a violent movement.

This sounds a lot like hate speech and support for violence.

Makes me wonder if this domain shouldn't be hosted.
08-19-2017, 08:49 AM,
Post: #102
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
(08-19-2017, 08:25 AM)Kev Wrote:
(08-19-2017, 12:47 AM)Gippy Wrote:
(08-18-2017, 09:02 PM)roo Wrote:
(08-18-2017, 11:13 AM)Gippy Wrote:
(08-18-2017, 10:55 AM)roo Wrote:
(08-18-2017, 08:33 AM)Gippy Wrote: We've been lucky. There haven't been any real "help help I'm being oppressed" events that I can remember.

We've had lots of alarms that people THINK their free speech rights are being violated. Nothing real (caveat: nothing NEW that's real. Lots of long standing struggles still endure). But if the actual event where we come to the brink and analyze our response is that white supremacists/nazi/fascist/alt-right were given their rights, but a response by the people shut them up. Yeah, I'm ok with that.

It feels to me like so far we're passing the free speech test. The government allows a lot (arguably too much when money counts as free speech). But the people stand up when they've had enough of a bad thing. Look at the build up to gay marriage. Lots of noise, marches, protests and glitter. No one got shut down. Protests against war. Same thing (minus the glitter). Protests against government over overreach (ie: the Bundys, Healthcare). Protests against worldwide government collusion (G8). Equal rights (BLM). Varying levels of participation, vigor, privilege, and property damage. But whatever side those were on, the only event that truly pushed the boundaries were in response to Nazis.

Did I miss a relevant example? (again, asking for a friend)
Has something tyrannical happened that I've missed? As much as I loathe Trump, he hasn't passed in to tyranny.

I may not be paying attention, but I don't recall violent counter demonstrations at these.  Perhaps we can agree that demonstrations aren't the problem.

That's part of my point. None of those garnered counter protests of note. The counter protest that pushed back against a movement, that has us questioning free speech, was against white supremacy. Not bad.

There's the rub: using violence to silence ideas is the sort of bullying fuels tyranny.  The bullies who attacked demonstrators are criminals. It's that simple.  It's not a criminal activity to demonstrate, it's criminal to assault and kill others for their beliefs.

The other problem is that no one knows who threw the first punch.  Sure, one might argue that the counter protesters picked a fight, and one might argue the torch bearers were trolling for conflict all long. I think they're all guilty.  I don't want any of those idiots making decisions in my country.  It's not that I'm sympathetic to the Nazis, it's that I'm unwilling to relinquish liberty because of some dumb street brawl.

At the risk of really dragging this out:

I've got a line in my brain where this opposition wasn't the silencing, nor the attempt to silence, the white supremacists. Silencing isn't the goal in opposition like this. It is sending a message.

It is splitting hairs, I know, but at no point has the opposition to white supremacy sought to outright silence them. It is setting an example of what's wrong and what the repercussions are. Maybe that's just as bad. Due to the tactics it probably falls under intimidation. But, once again, I'm not opposed to a violent reaction to a violent movement.

This sounds a lot like hate speech and support for violence.

Makes me wonder if this domain shouldn't be hosted.

Woo, made it all the way to the tolerance paradox, did you?

I'm proud to have been here for you to make that journey, Kev.
08-19-2017, 09:29 AM,
Post: #103
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
Tolerance paradox is so 2 days ago...
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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08-19-2017, 03:57 PM,
Post: #104
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
   
08-20-2017, 03:31 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-20-2017, 03:31 AM by Gippy.)
Post: #105
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
Too much cruft. Must simplify.

[Image: VIUxx0Z.jpg]
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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08-20-2017, 04:23 AM,
Post: #106
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
The Boston rally appears to have gone down without incident. No violence in the news. The rally was vastly outnumbered. Reports are anywhere from 100-1 to 200-1 (Trump said it was the largest gathering he'd seen since his inauguration, but not as large). They had 2 hours, but were drowned out and left in 45m.

No doubt they'll start complaining that their free speech was infringed upon by free speech.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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08-20-2017, 04:42 AM,
Post: #107
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
Though, in further reading, words from the Führer himself seem to show that the path forward is a sticky one. Too much, get this Roo, tyrannical response, to a small movement could embolden it like in the early throws of the 3rd Reich.

Quote:And so, I established in 1919 a programme and tendency that was a conscious slap in the face of the democratic-pacifist world (…) [We knew] it might take five or ten or twenty years, yet gradually an authoritarian state arose within the democratic state, and a nucleus of fanatical devotion and ruthless determination formed in a wretched world that lacked basic convictions.

Only one danger could have jeopardised this development – if our adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of our ideas, and not offered any resistance. Or, alternatively, if they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement.

Neither was done. The times were such that our adversaries were no longer capable of accomplishing our annihilation, nor did they have the nerve. Arguably, they furthermore lacked the understanding to assume a wholly appropriate attitude. Instead, they began to tyrannise our young movement by bourgeois means, and, by doing so, they assisted the process of natural selection in a very fortunate manner. From there on, it was only a question of time until the leadership of the nation would fall to our hardened human material. (…)

The more our adversaries believe they can obstruct our development by employing a degree of terror that is characteristic of their nature, the more they encourage it. Nietzsche said that a blow which does not kill a strong man only makes him stronger, and his words are confirmed a thousand times. Every blow strengthens our defiance, every persecution reinforces our single-minded determination, and the elements that do fall are good riddance to the movement.

That said, the push back here is primarily coming from the people. The leaders are slow to respond and join in, fearful of taking the wrong position. There's a popular movement against white supremacy and, violence or no violence, that's going to help keep it on track.

Salute
08-20-2017, 05:00 AM,
Post: #108
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
If resistance without violence is effective, so much the better. If nazis need punching in order for the message to sink in, so be it.
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08-20-2017, 06:06 AM,
Post: #109
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
Subtly related https://www.hakaimagazine.com/features/power-compassion
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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08-20-2017, 06:17 AM,
Post: #110
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
(08-20-2017, 06:06 AM)Gippy Wrote: Subtly related https://www.hakaimagazine.com/features/power-compassion

That is an awesome article. I'm glad I read it.
08-20-2017, 08:35 AM,
Post: #111
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
(08-20-2017, 04:42 AM)Gippy Wrote: Though, in further reading, words from the Führer himself seem to show that the path forward is a sticky one. Too much, get this Roo, tyrannical response, to a small movement could embolden it like in the early throws of the 3rd Reich.

Quote:And so, I established in 1919 a programme and tendency that was a conscious slap in the face of the democratic-pacifist world (…) [We knew] it might take five or ten or twenty years, yet gradually an authoritarian state arose within the democratic state, and a nucleus of fanatical devotion and ruthless determination formed in a wretched world that lacked basic convictions.

Only one danger could have jeopardised this development – if our adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of our ideas, and not offered any resistance. Or, alternatively, if they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement.

Neither was done. The times were such that our adversaries were no longer capable of accomplishing our annihilation, nor did they have the nerve. Arguably, they furthermore lacked the understanding to assume a wholly appropriate attitude. Instead, they began to tyrannise our young movement by bourgeois means, and, by doing so, they assisted the process of natural selection in a very fortunate manner. From there on, it was only a question of time until the leadership of the nation would fall to our hardened human material. (…)

The more our adversaries believe they can obstruct our development by employing a degree of terror that is characteristic of their nature, the more they encourage it. Nietzsche said that a blow which does not kill a strong man only makes him stronger, and his words are confirmed a thousand times. Every blow strengthens our defiance, every persecution reinforces our single-minded determination, and the elements that do fall are good riddance to the movement.

That said, the push back here is primarily coming from the people. The leaders are slow to respond and join in, fearful of taking the wrong position. There's a popular movement against white supremacy and, violence or no violence, that's going to help keep it on track.

Salute

If you swap out nouns, this applies to the civil rights movement in the 60s, or really just about anything.
08-28-2017, 01:54 PM,
Post: #112
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
https://twitter.com/MattBors/status/901577568566071296

Good people on both sides... plain as day.
Still only one side actually fired in to a crowd and killed a person with a car.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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08-28-2017, 02:37 PM,
Post: #113
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
Ugh. But antifa didn't help their cause today. Grossly outnumbering the opposition and they still broke out the batons.

They gave those fuckers just what they wanted: equal moral footing.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
flickr | Stupid Blog | Twitter
08-28-2017, 06:38 PM,
Post: #114
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
Yes, there are a non-trivial number that are way too eager for a fight. That is severely hurting "the cause".
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08-29-2017, 12:29 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-29-2017, 12:39 AM by FuturDreamz.)
Post: #115
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
(08-28-2017, 06:38 PM)Alien Wrote: Yes, there are a non-trivial number that are way too eager for a fight. That is severely hurting "the cause".

"Non-trivial." Well that's one way to put it.

Literally the whole point of the left protests is to fight the system, whatever that may be. The end result of that practice is that individual members will fight any form of group organization and moderation, yet everyone acts all surprised when they let people self-regulate only for all their plans to lead straight to rioting.

All these people organizing these protests have this great vision of how people will react and act during the protest, but then they give little to no emphasis of making sure everyone is on the same page and knows what is acceptable and unacceptable, and how to respond when shit hits the fan. Naturally several members go out of control, which creates retaliation and counter-retaliations and then the whole protest is no longer peaceful - if it ever was in the first place.

You know why anarchy doesn't work? It requires EVERYBODY to be on the same page and have the same idea of what is right and what is not. Effectively a hive-mind of like-minded individuals, and "correct" or exile those that don't fit. That's literally what Hitler did, starting with people who were a little bit more reluctant to share their wealth due to a long history of having to leave in a hurry.
08-29-2017, 12:47 AM,
Post: #116
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
Please, do go on.
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08-29-2017, 01:36 AM,
Post: #117
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
As you wish.

BLM at least has a clear goal; to end prosecution and injustices against blacks. They do go to the extreme and sometimes have a retaliation mentality, but in the end their focus is the same.

Alt-Left? Their goals are many and sometimes conflict. They want to end racism, they want to end sexism, they want to abolish guns, they want to dump immigrants on everyone's lawn, they want to intergrate Muslim beliefs - even to Sharia Law. There is no focus, none at all. They cannot even quantify or recognize any success in achieving their goals, as they're always adding new goalposts to tackle. There is no organization, and they only thing everyone seems to be able to agree on is that everyone else is the enemy.

And do you know what that lead to? An enemy. If it wasn't for the Left's shenanigans or accusations, people who had radical tendencies would be treated and dealt with as isolated cases and be done with that. But with the branding of everyone against and indifferent as the same monsters, that lead to two things: First, it basically gave the okay to the radicals as now they were no worse than most people, apparently. Second, it pissed off a LOT of people - several of which basically went "you're calling me a monster? fine, I'll show you an monster." The left literally created their own resistance, which they can now point to as justification for their past and future actions. Except their goals is still undefined.

That leads to a problem. The left hates the right, and the right hates the left. But the hate has multiple reasons that are poorly defined, so no middle ground can be found. Trump may be trying to be neutral, but in the end he represents a Right government. So what's an indignant Left to do?

The same thing Stalin did. The same thing Chavez did. The same thing Hitler did. - or, more accurately, the events that allowed those people to do what they did.

Rip it apart, everything you disagree with. Tear down the statues. Murder the politicians. Destroy the country. And not have a plan for what happens next. Sure, that can be dealt with later. The real constitution can be written well after the temporary one won the war. The real house of parliament can be built after the temporary one is on the freshly minted coins. People will magically self regulate themselves and behave while a new government is formed.

But what if that doesn't happen? What if tearing down the government creates chaos, chaos that must be dealt with and there's no time or resources to build the perfect governance? Somebody should do something, and do it fast. I don't care who it is as long as I can feed myself and my kids. This guy sounds promising, he will save us. He needs to do what he says? Okay. He needs us to fight for him to feed our families? Okay. He needs us to "deal with" those that disagree with him? Okay.

There. Is. No. Focus. The Left will fight until they win, but they can't define what is a win. Some people don't care. Some people don't like them. And some people see an end game where they and their families will be taking dry showers, and are terrified.
My logic is infallible. Resistance is futile.
08-29-2017, 02:00 AM,
Post: #118
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
You truly are an energiser bunny of stupid.
08-29-2017, 04:02 AM,
Post: #119
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
(08-29-2017, 02:00 AM)Alien Wrote: You truly are an energiser bunny of stupid.

And you have a persistent habit of projecting when in the face of logic.
08-29-2017, 04:22 AM,
Post: #120
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
(08-29-2017, 04:02 AM)FuturDreamz Wrote:
(08-29-2017, 02:00 AM)Alien Wrote: You truly are an energiser bunny of stupid.

And you have a persistent habit of projecting when in the face of logic.

You have a persistent habit of assuming what you've posted is logical.
08-29-2017, 06:49 AM,
Post: #121
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
(08-29-2017, 04:22 AM)Jehannum Wrote:
(08-29-2017, 04:02 AM)FuturDreamz Wrote:
(08-29-2017, 02:00 AM)Alien Wrote: You truly are an energiser bunny of stupid.

And you have a persistent habit of projecting when in the face of logic.

You have a persistent habit of assuming what you've posted is logical.

My logic is infallible. Otherwise you would be explaining why I'm incorrect instead of simply insulting me.
08-29-2017, 06:57 AM,
Post: #122
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
You've long wasted your credit. Told you it was going to be an uphill challenge.
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08-30-2017, 01:45 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-30-2017, 01:46 AM by Gippy.)
Post: #123
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
Wow... that was dumb.
I had no idea that supporting immigration meant that we wanted to plant them like garden gnomes.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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08-30-2017, 02:26 AM,
Post: #124
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
(08-30-2017, 01:45 AM)Gippy Wrote: Wow... that was dumb.
I had no idea that supporting immigration meant that we wanted to plant them like garden gnomes.

You missed the part where he blamed the left™ for the existence of neoNazis and the KKK.
08-30-2017, 05:06 AM,
Post: #125
RE: Why do people get upset when fratboys with tiki torches assemble?
I only got so far in to the stupid before I fell off my chair.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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