NEW: iOS File Manager
06-12-2017, 12:47 PM,
Post: #26
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
lol
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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06-14-2017, 04:57 AM,
Post: #27
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-12-2017, 10:13 AM)roo Wrote: I have yet to experience anything better than a hierarchical file system.  I'm not sure why everyone is in such a hurry to get rid of it since every alternative -- so far -- sucks.

Hierarchy fails at scale.

You don't search the internet hierarchically.
06-14-2017, 07:03 AM,
Post: #28
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-14-2017, 04:57 AM)Jehannum Wrote:
(06-12-2017, 10:13 AM)roo Wrote: I have yet to experience anything better than a hierarchical file system.  I'm not sure why everyone is in such a hurry to get rid of it since every alternative -- so far -- sucks.

Hierarchy fails at scale.

You don't search the internet hierarchically.

So? That has nothing to do with how a home computer - no matter the "interface" - manages files.
06-14-2017, 07:39 AM,
Post: #29
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-14-2017, 07:03 AM)FuturDreamz Wrote:
(06-14-2017, 04:57 AM)Jehannum Wrote:
(06-12-2017, 10:13 AM)roo Wrote: I have yet to experience anything better than a hierarchical file system.  I'm not sure why everyone is in such a hurry to get rid of it since every alternative -- so far -- sucks.

Hierarchy fails at scale.

You don't search the internet hierarchically.

So? That has nothing to do with how a home computer - no matter the "interface" - manages files.

The internet is essentially a large scale collection of files.

As capacities have grown, the average file size hasn't grown much.  In fact, we've gone to great lengths to reduce file sizes (h.264 and h.265 are good examples of that).  What is needed instead of a hierarchical system that already takes a great amount of time for you personally to manage, is a good way of automatically managing searchable metadata.  Google has a pretty nice system for that already.
06-14-2017, 08:41 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-14-2017, 08:41 AM by roo.)
Post: #30
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-14-2017, 04:57 AM)Jehannum Wrote:
(06-12-2017, 10:13 AM)roo Wrote: I have yet to experience anything better than a hierarchical file system.  I'm not sure why everyone is in such a hurry to get rid of it since every alternative -- so far -- sucks.

Hierarchy fails at scale.

You don't search the internet hierarchically.

I use hierarchies on the internet all day long.

Hierarchy:  Domains. TLD -> Domain -> subdomain
Hierarchy:  Paths on every website.  e.g. /forums/bullshit/nonsense

Why would anyone search hierarchically?  Search is intended to span hierarchy to surface items that meet specific criteria. Though, I may limit a search to a certain hierarchy when I know that the object I'm looking for resides in a particular location.  e.g.  fender site:reverb.com
06-14-2017, 12:11 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-14-2017, 12:12 PM by Gippy.)
Post: #31
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
Organization and search are two different things.
Ideally they would work well together.

now... if the interface I used to save a file would ask me about taxonomy instead of a location, and self organize based on said taxonomy, they'd have me hook line and sinker.

I still want discoverability. So when I'm not sure of what I'm really looking for I can just browse and discover.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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06-14-2017, 01:19 PM,
Post: #32
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
Back on topic: it's better that the iOS... "interface"… has *A* file system as opposed to *no* file system. It's best when your files are not locked to a specific app or segregated from other files.
My logic is infallible. Resistance is futile.
06-14-2017, 01:52 PM,
Post: #33
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
It is for security.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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06-14-2017, 03:59 PM,
Post: #34
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-14-2017, 01:19 PM)FuturDreamz Wrote: Back on topic: it's better that the iOS... "interface"… has *A* file system as opposed to *no* file system. It's best when  your files are not locked to a specific app or segregated from other files.
You really are hellbent on demonstrating your ignorance in these matters, aren't you?
06-14-2017, 08:42 PM,
Post: #35
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
iOS already has a hierarchical filesystem, the user isn't allowed to access it.

The interface currently exposes the files housed in the Photos app. That wasn't part of iOS originally, it was added later after Apple realized people want to share Photos from their phones. Pretty big miss, huh?

That usage pattern is underpowered, and since the OS sandboxes everything, Apple integrated the sharing interface. It hasn't met demand with this tactic on iOS. And if I might digress, while I can't speak for everyone, desktop apps that have adopted the "sharing" pattern by replacing "File->Export" with "Share->Export" have broken the intuitive nature of the File Menu.

Files looks like Apple's latest attempt at intuitive sharing. Instead of every file prompt pointing at Photos, it'll probably [hopefully] point at Files. So if I want to text someone a spreadsheet, I should be able to. If I want to upload a PDF file, it ought to work.

Though given Apple's history of desperately pushing iCloud storage and its history of failing to implement a system to share files that meets demand, and its recent history of falling short at most of its efforts, I'm not terribly optimistic that Files will solve many problems, and I expect that it will only expose a sandboxed collection of files akin to what Photos does with images.
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06-14-2017, 09:54 PM,
Post: #36
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
Attaching a file to an email should happen from within an email app, not through some gimped imitation of a file manager.

And I still think you are confusing "intuitive" with "familiar".
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06-15-2017, 06:02 AM,
Post: #37
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
What is needed here is less of a file manager and more of a file API between applications. I want email to ask Dropbox for access to a file it can then attach. I want safari to ask the PDF scanner app for access to a file it can upload to a web form.

The file system on the phone is rightfully petitioned by application. Willy nilly access to files across apps is part of what made Android a cesspool.

As far as I know all the groundwork is there in iOS. The problem is the lack of cohesion.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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06-15-2017, 06:10 AM,
Post: #38
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
Exactly.

And Apple is in a unique position where they can, ehm, "strongly encourage" this. It works two ways: apps should advertise which file types the can handle, and should expose their files to apps that can handle them, when asked. Pretty much the way it works now, but expanded: you can request to attach from the mail app and be presented with a file picker (of sorts), or be in the photo app and choose to share a photo (via a variety of means, among which email).
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06-15-2017, 06:12 AM,
Post: #39
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
Or, of course: "hey, Siri, attach my CV to this email."
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06-15-2017, 07:42 AM,
Post: #40
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-14-2017, 09:54 PM)Alien Wrote: Attaching a file to an email should happen from within an email app, not through some gimped imitation of a file manager.

And I still think you are confusing "intuitive" with "familiar".

Apple says that attaching a file to an email should happen while you're looking at the file.  It's the fundamental principle behind Apple's sharing interface.  Perhaps it's safe to conclude that the definition of "intuitive" is not a thing one person can dictate.  

For example, to email a file on a desktop, I would find the file, drag it to Mail (or directly onto a message), and off I go.  I don't compose email and then try to use the attach file interface.  That thing sucks.  

I want that same experience on iOS. Except when I don't.
06-15-2017, 07:45 AM,
Post: #41
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-15-2017, 06:10 AM)Alien Wrote: Exactly.

And Apple is in a unique position where they can, ehm, "strongly encourage" this. It works two ways: apps should advertise which file types the can handle, and should expose their files to apps that can handle them, when asked. Pretty much the way it works now, but expanded: you can request to attach from the mail app and be presented with a file picker (of sorts), or be in the photo app and choose to share a photo (via a variety of means, among which email).

You're describing the existing "Share" interface.  It largely sucks.  And it ignores context.  Consider I have a png file and a pages document.  Pages can open the png file, or it could embed the png in a pages document.  It's not enough for Pages to say, "Hey bro, I can open a png."  Pages must understand what the user is planning to do with the png.

That context is missing from iOS, instead, it works how you describe, and it's unsatisfying.
06-15-2017, 02:04 PM,
Post: #42
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
I don't understand how being able to open a PNG directly would help with context for Pages.
No application knows what your intent for a file is unless a) its a native file, double click and open, b) drag and drop, import c) perform an in-app function that is functionally an import of that file for some kind of action that the application can perform. Only b & c can really have context. And that has nothing to do with filesystem access.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
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06-15-2017, 08:54 PM,
Post: #43
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
I believe that you are conflating my arguments. I'm suggesting that context is an important consideration with the UI for interacting with files, and it's why Apple's design patterns (Photos and Share) have not yet hit the mark.

Files may present, however, a means for accessing resources that are relevant to a greater variety of contexts. Instead of accessing only photos, one might be able to access a file. That would be a considerable improvement to the existing design pattern. Even if you don't understand the png and pages example, there are many use cases where a user might sometimes want to open a file directly, and other times want to embed a resource with another document.

Access to the filesystem, as you point out, has nothing to do with that. I am sure that we all agree [with perhaps one exception] with your notion that Apple will maintain its sandboxed environment.
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06-15-2017, 10:47 PM,
Post: #44
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
So basically a push-pull interface. Being able to push files to supported apps, and apps being able to pull supported files at will.
My logic is infallible. Resistance is futile.
06-15-2017, 11:05 PM,
Post: #45
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-15-2017, 08:54 PM)roo Wrote: I'm suggesting that context is an important consideration with the UI for interacting with files, and it's why Apple's design patterns (Photos and Share) have not yet hit the mark.
I think we all (but perhaps one) agree on context being important, but I fear we are entering a semantic mire. The "Share" portion is clear, but what do you mean by "Photos"? Photos is an app on iOS, as far as I know, not a user interface paradigm for opening, sharing or embedding content.
Quote:Files […]
"Files" the app, or "files" the storage paradigm?
Quote:[…] may present, however, a means for accessing resources that are relevant to a greater variety of contexts.
How does a separate app that offers little but a hierarchical view of the storage subsystem add any context that cannot be provided through an app-centric UI?
Quote:Instead of accessing only photos, one might be able to access a file.
Well, yes, but there is no reason that the content that can be accessed form the current embedding interaction cannot be extended to encompass any and all data entities that are made available by their respective "owners".
Quote:That would be a considerable improvement to the existing design pattern.  Even if you don't understand the png and pages example, there are many use cases where a user might sometimes want to open a file directly, and other times want to embed a resource with another document.
So how does one indicate that distinction in a file management app? Through contextual menus? You offered the example of dropping a file onto the Mail app icon from the Finder and having a new email message with that file attached presented to you. Sure, but that is the only thing Mail knows to do with literally everything that is not an email message. How do you suppose Pages would know how to respond to you simply dropping a PNG file onto its icon? Open the image? Open a new document with the image embedded? Embed the image into the document you last worked on?
06-16-2017, 01:48 AM,
Post: #46
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-14-2017, 08:41 AM)roo Wrote:
(06-14-2017, 04:57 AM)Jehannum Wrote:
(06-12-2017, 10:13 AM)roo Wrote: I have yet to experience anything better than a hierarchical file system.  I'm not sure why everyone is in such a hurry to get rid of it since every alternative -- so far -- sucks.

Hierarchy fails at scale.

You don't search the internet hierarchically.

I use hierarchies on the internet all day long.

Hierarchy:  Domains. TLD -> Domain -> subdomain
Hierarchy:  Paths on every website.  e.g. /forums/bullshit/nonsense

Why would anyone search hierarchically?  Search is intended to span hierarchy to surface items that meet specific criteria. Though, I may limit a search to a certain hierarchy when I know that the object I'm looking for resides in a particular location.  e.g.  fender site:reverb.com

Spanning hierarchy is the point.  Hierarchy breaks down at scale.

I'll guarantee your photos are a huge pile of disorganized mess, even if you do have them stuck in folders that you've maybe given a cursory organizational plan.

But maybe you never intended to go back and look for that one photo you took at the Apple Store in 2006.
06-16-2017, 01:58 AM,
Post: #47
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
When I feel the need to drain my sack on a lonely night far from home, I far prefer to just type in "blonde teens getting nailed by black dudes" and get my fill, than go, "lessee: porn.blondes.teens.getting_nailed.black_dudes, … anything there? Nope. Hm. Maybe teens.blonde.nailed_by.black_dudes? Nope. Dammit. black_dudes.nailing.teens, … OH GOD NO! Hm. maybe… oh, time to go back to the office already?"

Yeah, obviously a hierarchical system is the solution to everything. Always.
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06-16-2017, 08:58 PM,
Post: #48
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
My photos are a mess because they're managed by the Photos app. It puts them into a weird hierarchy on the filesystem that I don't look at. Now it's not even a regular directory anymore, it's a package. But the UI in photos stores them by date sometimes, moments other times. Yeah, it's a mess, but it's good enough for me to find stuff. If I really cared, I'd title and tag photos.

I'll tell you what though: I keep my applications in the /Applications folder. And I keep my documents in my ~/Documents folder. I even have sub folders for different types of documents like artwork, projects, minutes, house stuff, etc.

Oh, and when I build an application, I create a folder for templates, and other folders for various types of includes, and one for images, and sometimes I put directories in images for specific types of files like icons. I find that to be very handy when it comes time to edit some of several hundred files.
bedstuy Wrote:mocking a pair of $500 jeans is a form of class warfare... why do you hate my social status?
06-16-2017, 09:13 PM,
Post: #49
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-15-2017, 11:05 PM)Alien Wrote:
(06-15-2017, 08:54 PM)roo Wrote: I'm suggesting that context is an important consideration with the UI for interacting with files, and it's why Apple's design patterns (Photos and Share) have not yet hit the mark.
I think we all (but perhaps one) agree on context being important, but I fear we are entering a semantic mire. The "Share" portion is clear, but what do you mean by "Photos"? Photos is an app on iOS, as far as I know, not a user interface paradigm for opening, sharing or embedding content.

Quote:Files […]
"Files" the app, or "files" the storage paradigm?


Quote:[…] may present, however, a means for accessing resources that are relevant to a greater variety of contexts.
How does a separate app that offers little but a hierarchical view of the storage subsystem add any context that cannot be provided through an app-centric UI?

Quote:Instead of accessing only photos, one might be able to access a file.
Well, yes, but there is no reason that the content that can be accessed form the current embedding interaction cannot be extended to encompass any and all data entities that are made available by their respective "owners".

Quote:That would be a considerable improvement to the existing design pattern.  Even if you don't understand the png and pages example, there are many use cases where a user might sometimes want to open a file directly, and other times want to embed a resource with another document.
So how does one indicate that distinction in a file management app? Through contextual menus? You offered the example of dropping a file onto the Mail app icon from the Finder and having a new email message with that file attached presented to you. Sure, but that is the only thing Mail knows to do with literally everything that is not an email message. How do you suppose Pages would know how to respond to you simply dropping a PNG file onto its icon? Open the image? Open a new document with the image embedded? Embed the image into the document you last worked on?


It looks like you spent a lot of time on that post.  This is my favorite part:

Quote:
Quote:Files […]
"Files" the app, or "files" the storage paradigm?

I don't know the solution for Apple's file sharing problem and I'm not sure why you'd expect me to, I just know that Apple's attempts to solve it have been unsuccessful.  It's a tough problem to solve since the core idea is to find a way to make their secure sandboxes semi-permeable.

My point, from the beginning has been that Files isn't going to be the amazing thing nerds want. It isn't likely to expose the file system. It may, however, make it a little easier to work with your resources than the existing methods. because a user could get at a file in one of two ways: from the current document, or from the Files interface.

Please note that I am more than a little tempted to cut this response back to only that first sentence. :trump:
06-16-2017, 11:56 PM,
Post: #50
RE: NEW: iOS File Manager
(06-16-2017, 09:13 PM)roo Wrote: I don't know the solution for Apple's file sharing problem and I'm not sure why you'd expect me to, I just know that Apple's attempts to solve it have been unsuccessful.  It's a tough problem to solve since the core idea is to find a way to make their secure sandboxes semi-permeable.

My point, from the beginning has been that Files isn't going to be the amazing thing nerds want. It isn't likely to expose the file system. It may, however, make it a little easier to work with your resources than the existing methods. because a user could get at a file in one of two ways: from the current document, or from the Files interface.

At least it's a start. Like it or not, the iPad will not be use able as a Mac replacement until it becomes a bit more open. It's clear that Apple fully intends to kill off macOS, but cannot do so because customers would revolt. Everything that they have done this WWDC makes perfeft sense in a hypothetical iOS-only world, even the iMac Pro. Apple's refusal to merge iOS and macOS is holding them back, and that will only become more painful as time goes on.


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