PLEASE NOTE
11-11-2016, 11:34 AM,
Post: #26
RE: PLEASE NOTE
If anything, criticizing Trump supporters was the problem. When BLM blockaded the gay pride parade in Toronto, it instilled even more negativity. This is the same thing. If you were more or less neutral, would you rather go with the group that seems a little crazy or would you go for the group that is effectively foaming at the mouth coming up with all sorts of vulger insults for people that don't agree with them? All it has done is spook people and made them hide their allegiance, which itself draws similarities to the USSR and Nazi regimes.
My logic is infallible. Resistance is futile.
11-11-2016, 12:19 PM,
Post: #27
RE: PLEASE NOTE
(11-11-2016, 10:08 AM)Gippy Wrote: No, chastising trump supporters is easy. Supporting the homophobic, xenophobic, and racist tones, the aggression towards those that don't think the same and speak out against. And the outright lies.

You can't make as ugly an argument against Hillary and no matter what you think of her as a person her record is commendable. She is, to your credit, unelectable. Dry, factual and without emotion doesn't get you anywhere any more.

But criticizing trump supporters is not a cop out.

It's lazy.  If our democracy wanted Hillary, we'd have Hillary.  To your point, one cannot take the position that a democrat or republican is entitled to any particular vote(s). Just as you say that one can't blame Jill Stein for taking "Hillary's" votes, then one can't blame Trump either. Trump took waaaaay more of "Hillary's" votes than Stein did.

You can make fun of people for having qualities that you don't admire all you want.  At least for the time being. You may not have such liberties in a few years.
11-11-2016, 01:15 PM,
Post: #28
RE: PLEASE NOTE
Yet another example of people getting the democracy they deserve.
Clubbie Clubbie Clubbie Clubbie Clubbie Clubbie Clubbie Clubbie ClubbieClubbieClubbieClubbie




11-11-2016, 01:22 PM,
Post: #29
RE: PLEASE NOTE
/cue Batman quote.
My logic is infallible. Resistance is futile.
11-11-2016, 01:50 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-11-2016, 02:31 PM by Gippy.)
Post: #30
RE: PLEASE NOTE
(11-11-2016, 12:19 PM)roo Wrote:
(11-11-2016, 10:08 AM)Gippy Wrote: No, chastising trump supporters is easy. Supporting the homophobic, xenophobic, and racist tones, the aggression towards those that don't think the same and speak out against. And the outright lies.

You can't make as ugly an argument against Hillary and no matter what you think of her as a person her record is commendable. She is, to your credit, unelectable. Dry, factual and without emotion doesn't get you anywhere any more.

But criticizing trump supporters is not a cop out.

It's lazy.  If our democracy wanted Hillary, we'd have Hillary.  To your point, one cannot take the position that a democrat or republican is entitled to any particular vote(s). Just as you say that one can't blame Jill Stein for taking "Hillary's" votes, then one can't blame Trump either. Trump took waaaaay more of "Hillary's" votes than Stein did.

You can make fun of people for having qualities that you don't admire all you want.  At least for the time being. You may not have such liberties in a few years.

This where you're misreading me. I'm not accusing trump taking votes. I'm accusing Trumps supporters as being one or more of the following: racist (we're already seeing trump supporters touting their affiliation during race based attacks), stupid (they don't realize that a man who has spent his whole life taking advantage of little guys isn't gonna be a champion of the middle class), lazy (wanting change and taking the first idiot who isn't establishment), mysoginistic & racist (let's take America back to a day when women knew their place, gays stayed hidden, and the coloreds weren't uppity) and dangerous (the CIA and FBI are already nervous about giving him national security briefings).

Sure, that doesn't cover all of them. There are those that can tolerate all this and still hope that he's not what he appears to be. I don't understand these people.

The democracy voted more for Hillary than for Donald. It's the establishment that they all decry that is actually putting him in office.

I can much better rationalize a vote for Johnson than I can for Trump.

And, before you say it, this is but part of why Hillary lost. She shoulders a lot of the reasons why she lost.
11-11-2016, 05:27 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-11-2016, 05:38 PM by FuturDreamz.)
Post: #31
RE: PLEASE NOTE
(11-11-2016, 01:50 PM)Gippy Wrote:
(11-11-2016, 12:19 PM)roo Wrote:
(11-11-2016, 10:08 AM)Gippy Wrote: No, chastising trump supporters is easy. Supporting the homophobic, xenophobic, and racist tones, the aggression towards those that don't think the same and speak out against. And the outright lies.

You can't make as ugly an argument against Hillary and no matter what you think of her as a person her record is commendable. She is, to your credit, unelectable. Dry, factual and without emotion doesn't get you anywhere any more.

But criticizing trump supporters is not a cop out.

It's lazy. If our democracy wanted Hillary, we'd have Hillary. To your point, one cannot take the position that a democrat or republican is entitled to any particular vote(s). Just as you say that one can't blame Jill Stein for taking "Hillary's" votes, then one can't blame Trump either. Trump took waaaaay more of "Hillary's" votes than Stein did.

You can make fun of people for having qualities that you don't admire all you want. At least for the time being. You may not have such liberties in a few years.

This where you're misreading me. I'm not accusing trump taking votes. I'm accusing Trumps supporters as being one or more of the following: racist (we're already seeing trump supporters touting their affiliation during race based attacks), stupid (they don't realize that a man who has spent his whole life taking advantage of little guys isn't gonna be a champion of the middle class), lazy (wanting change and taking the first idiot who isn't establishment), mysoginistic & racist (let's take America back to a day when women knew their place, gays stayed hidden, and the coloreds weren't uppity) and dangerous (the CIA and FBI are already nervous about giving him national security briefings).

Sure, that doesn't cover all of them. There are those that can tolerate all this and still hope that he's not what he appears to be. I don't understand these people.

The democracy voted more for Hillary than for Donald. It's the establishment that they all decry that is actually putting him in office.

I can much better rationalize a vote for Johnson than I can for Trump.

And, before you say it, this is but part of why Hillary lost. She shoulders a lot of the reasons why she lost.

Here's the thing: you have declared every and all Trump voters as racist, stupid, lazy, mysoginistic, and for good measure racist again. You are applying those terms to about 45% of the US voting population. For fucks sake, listen to yourself! Do you even realize what you sound like to a Trump supporter, or even a neutral party? Do you even know of all the shit that's being done in the name of Clinton? Scratching the cars with Trump bumper stickers, running over Trump signs, harassing people who even just have a hat or a pin? Do I need to fucking spell what that looks like? It's like a bizarro world version of Nazi Germany where people could be lynched just for conforming. Do. You. Even. Fucking. Understand? To most people that prospect is actually terrifying - and hints at a future where the USA is an unsafe place to live in just because you're white and straight. That. Is. NOT. Equality! No wonder Trump won and the predictions didn't see it. Are you really so wound up in shiny marketing and conformational bias that you are completely INCAPABLE of independent thought? Like WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

All the normal people when they see stuff like the shit you're posting will simply think "wow what a weirdo" and politely avoid the conversation. Whenever someone normal comes across someone who yells that everyone anti-Clintion is a racist homophobe will literally treat that person as they would a psychotic street-side evangelical: Don't make eye contact, and try to avoid performing any action that would draw that person's attention to you.

http://thetruthdivision.com/2016/10/bust...-of-nails/
My logic is infallible. Resistance is futile.
11-12-2016, 01:11 AM,
Post: #32
RE: PLEASE NOTE
You didn't read my post very well.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
flickr | Stupid Blog | Twitter
11-12-2016, 01:18 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-12-2016, 02:37 AM by Gippy.)
Post: #33
RE: PLEASE NOTE
You want a link? Try this one: https://mobile.twitter.com/i/moments/796...830656?m=1

Trump has emboldened racists. The correlation is easy. And shit like this is happening here in SF, -a bastion of libtardness. People are trying to make themselves less brown, and appear less gay. Hide who they are. I don't give a shit about signs and cars, these are people's lives we're talking about.

There's a segment of the Trump voter base that thinks this was a referenda on white male dominance. My wife's friend is getting harassed at work because she supported Hillary.

It is amazing how you can ignore all the shit that led up to this and go straight for the reaction to make a nazi reference. Put your head back up your ass.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
flickr | Stupid Blog | Twitter
11-12-2016, 09:24 AM,
Post: #34
RE: PLEASE NOTE
And on the subject of majority vote vs. electoral college, the same electoral college that handed the Orange in Chief his presidency: http://boingboing.net/2016/11/11/before-...st-el.html
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
flickr | Stupid Blog | Twitter
11-12-2016, 09:37 AM,
Post: #35
RE: PLEASE NOTE
This happens every election. One side bitches and moans about how their candidate isn't being treated fairly and blah blah blah. People need to get over it. No one bitches about the system that works for them.

And yes, Trump is one of them. He complained that the system is rigged. And yes, he promptly shut up about it when the rigged system worked in his favor. Duh.

It's important to remember who won this election: one orange guy and no one else. Americans lose, the nation loses, and even the Republicans lose. Trump is not a party line guy. He hates little Marco and he resents Ryan and I'm pretty sure he has a list of every republican that pulled their support and that he has plans to make each instance right.

And we'd all be losers if crooked (lol) Hillary won too. Honestly. Ask any republican who'd their ideal president would be... see how many say "Trump" and then do the same with the Democrats. And then keep refusing to vote third party.
bedstuy Wrote:mocking a pair of $500 jeans is a form of class warfare... why do you hate my social status?
11-12-2016, 09:53 AM,
Post: #36
RE: PLEASE NOTE
Maybe one day the 3rd party will be viable. Some time before I die? Possibly?
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
flickr | Stupid Blog | Twitter
11-12-2016, 09:59 AM,
Post: #37
RE: PLEASE NOTE
Heh... he may not repeal obamacare. He's also filling his cabinet with cronies and lobbyists. Not even officially in office and he's breaking campaign promises.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
flickr | Stupid Blog | Twitter
11-12-2016, 10:05 AM,
Post: #38
RE: PLEASE NOTE
Well duh, everyone know that a politician's promises are shit. There was absolutely no way for home to execute even half of his claims, and even he knew that. In America, sensationalism sells.
My logic is infallible. Resistance is futile.
11-12-2016, 10:25 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-12-2016, 10:27 AM by shoeman.)
Post: #39
RE: PLEASE NOTE
(11-11-2016, 05:27 PM)FuturDreamz Wrote: Here's the thing: you have declared every and all Trump voters as racist, stupid, lazy, mysoginistic, and for good measure racist again. You are applying those terms to about 45% of the US voting population. For fucks sake, listen to yourself! Do you even realize what you sound like to a Trump supporter, or even a neutral party? Do you even know of all the shit that's being done in the name of Clinton? Scratching the cars with Trump bumper stickers, running over Trump signs, harassing people who even just have a hat or a pin? Do I need to fucking spell what that looks like? It's like a bizarro world version of Nazi Germany where people could be lynched just for conforming. Do. You. Even. Fucking. Understand? To most people that prospect is actually terrifying - and hints at a future where the USA is an unsafe place to live in just because you're white and straight. That. Is. NOT. Equality! No wonder Trump won and the predictions didn't see it. Are you really so wound up in shiny marketing and conformational bias that you are completely INCAPABLE of independent thought? Like WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

All the normal people when they see stuff like the shit you're posting will simply think "wow what a weirdo" and politely avoid the conversation. Whenever someone normal comes across someone who yells that everyone anti-Clintion is a racist homophobe will literally treat that person as they would a psychotic street-side evangelical: Don't make eye contact, and try to avoid performing any action that would draw that person's attention to you.

http://thetruthdivision.com/2016/10/bust...-of-nails/
If you're white, straight, and male and you're angry because you're learning that people have been preemptively judging you because you fit a description -- Well holy fuck, then you are an ignorant asshole. Your anger and fears are of no concern to other issues happening right now. America has only been a safe place for white people. And if you're worried that it will become an unsafe place for you, a white person, then you are putting your priorities in the wrong place. 

I don't even want to know what you think a "normal person" is. 
11-12-2016, 10:26 AM,
Post: #40
RE: PLEASE NOTE
(11-12-2016, 09:53 AM)Gippy Wrote: Maybe one day the 3rd party will be viable. Some time before I die? Possibly?

They're viable now. You just have to vote for them.

Imagine what 2020 would be like if Gary Johnson got 5% of the vote. Equal time and funding for a new conservative party.  Republican vote would be split.  To a strategist that's a waaaay better move than electing Hillary.  But people are dumb.
11-12-2016, 10:30 AM,
Post: #41
RE: PLEASE NOTE
shoeman Wuv Wuv Wuv
"Balls," said the queen. "If I had them, I'd be king."
11-12-2016, 10:35 AM,
Post: #42
RE: PLEASE NOTE
PuddleMonkey! Wuv Wuv Wuv
11-12-2016, 10:41 AM,
Post: #43
RE: PLEASE NOTE
Gary Johnson wasn't viable. He was for big money in politics. For the TPP. Said he knowns little about the pipeline but supports it anyway. Doesn't understand the minimum wage. Believes in no gun control. Like, at all. He tripled New Mexico's debt (granted, I don't know specifics here, but sounds like a good fiscal choice, right?). Wants to legalize ALL drugs (I'm for MJ, but the real nasty stuff shouldn't be legalized). His view on vaccinations is less than ideal.

The list goes on.

Fortunately he's pro-choice and pro gay rights (though he's said some weird things about the trans bathroom issue).

I understand the desire for smaller government but the Libertarian viewpoint is a little too extreme in the laissez faire.

Granted, he'd be better than Trump. Which is why I can understand the Johnson voters. When looking at the choices, all 3, Hillary was the obvious choice. More of the same, but that's what we get when the other two choices are unfit.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
flickr | Stupid Blog | Twitter
11-12-2016, 10:43 AM,
Post: #44
RE: PLEASE NOTE
I agree, though, that there needs to be a shift in the system to properly support a 3rd party. Right now its rigged against that.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
flickr | Stupid Blog | Twitter
11-12-2016, 10:53 AM,
Post: #45
RE: PLEASE NOTE
(11-12-2016, 10:26 AM)roo Wrote:
(11-12-2016, 09:53 AM)Gippy Wrote: Maybe one day the 3rd party will be viable. Some time before I die? Possibly?

They're viable now. You just have to vote for them.

Imagine what 2020 would be like if Gary Johnson got 5% of the vote. Equal time and funding for a new conservative party.  Republican vote would be split.  To a strategist that's a waaaay better move than electing Hillary.  But people are dumb.

I'd like to believe this, but in this instance both Johnson and Stein are fucking nuts. And I don't just have to vote for them--they have to win my vote.
11-12-2016, 11:09 AM,
Post: #46
RE: PLEASE NOTE
I can't imagine how long it would take to get a 3rd party option going.
11-12-2016, 11:18 PM,
Post: #47
RE: PLEASE NOTE
(11-12-2016, 10:41 AM)Gippy Wrote: Gary Johnson wasn't viable. He was for big money in politics. For the TPP. Said he knowns little about the pipeline but supports it anyway. Doesn't understand the minimum wage. Believes in no gun control. Like, at all. He tripled New Mexico's debt (granted, I don't know specifics here, but sounds like a good fiscal choice, right?). Wants to legalize ALL drugs (I'm for MJ, but the real nasty stuff shouldn't be legalized). His view on vaccinations is less than ideal.

The list goes on.

Fortunately he's pro-choice and pro gay rights (though he's said some weird things about the trans bathroom issue).

I understand the desire for smaller government but the Libertarian viewpoint is a little too extreme in the laissez faire.

Granted, he'd be better than Trump. Which is why I can understand the Johnson voters. When looking at the choices, all 3, Hillary was the obvious choice. More of the same, but that's what we get when the other two choices are unfit.


Hillary wasn't viable either, but it sounds like you voted for her.  Unfortunately, the way it happened is this: everyone who cast a vote for Hillary threw their vote away.  No difference today, no difference tomorrow.  That's a terrible waste.

My suggestion this year (and every year, really) isn't voting to win this election, but to win the future.  Don't get caught up in the LP or Green platform, it doesn't matter because they won't win (though even if they did, you just said it'd be preferable to Trump). Anyway, if they get 5% of the vote, they get federal funds and equal media time so that they can be equally viable (or not) as the big two parties. Ergo if just 5% of the electorate had invested in the idea of splitting the republican vote, 2020 would all but guarantee a president that's better than Trump, and probably again in 2024 and 2028 because the GOP would be a divided wreck. It's an investment, and like any investment, you have to be prepared for some short term set backs.

It comes down to this:  when one votes against a candidate, that vote would ultimately provide greater yield on a third party. 
11-12-2016, 11:23 PM,
Post: #48
RE: PLEASE NOTE
(11-12-2016, 10:53 AM)PuddleMonkey Wrote:
(11-12-2016, 10:26 AM)roo Wrote:
(11-12-2016, 09:53 AM)Gippy Wrote: Maybe one day the 3rd party will be viable. Some time before I die? Possibly?

They're viable now. You just have to vote for them.

Imagine what 2020 would be like if Gary Johnson got 5% of the vote. Equal time and funding for a new conservative party.  Republican vote would be split.  To a strategist that's a waaaay better move than electing Hillary.  But people are dumb.

I'd like to believe this, but in this instance both Johnson and Stein are fucking nuts. And I don't just have to vote for them--they have to win my vote.

Again, the vote isn't to elect Johnson or Stein, it's to elevate their parties.  No one is suggesting that they'll somehow go from obscurity to the White House in one fell swoop (indeed, they didn't).  And besides, Trump and Clinton are also fucking nuts. I, for one, wonder what either one of them did to "win your vote."
11-13-2016, 05:18 AM,
Post: #49
RE: PLEASE NOTE
Voting for a president is always going to be a vote for the person who most closely aligns with the ideals that you deem most important. I never have and don't expect that I ever will align 100% with a candidate or party.

That means that to vote for a 3rd party they'd need to first present someone who is attractive enough on the issues. To be elevated they have to be worthy. I see your point, I do, but I want to see presentable candidates first.

i voted against Teump. And you'lll criticize that, but you did the same thing. Your attempt to legitimize this 3rd party was not a vote for Johnson, but a vote against the current system. I just opted to put my vote in for someone who I thought could win and whose ideas I didn't oppose as much as I opposed Trumps.
The chaos army seems suspiciously well organized.
flickr | Stupid Blog | Twitter
11-13-2016, 06:35 AM,
Post: #50
RE: PLEASE NOTE
That's the part that gets me. You (and many others) were less opposed to Hillary, but opposed all the same, yet you voted for her.

It's the logic that put Trump in charge of the country. But I guess 95% of the country is OK with it. I should take my own advice and just accept it.
bedstuy Wrote:mocking a pair of $500 jeans is a form of class warfare... why do you hate my social status?


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